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"NOrmativity" by Maria Krugovaya and Pavel Dyagilev
Viewing room
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CU46 Project: First question: Whose idea is it? How did it come? And what kind of pain? Because I know that there is some pain behind every art project. So I want to know about this pain. I understand that the idea belongs to Pavel. How did you decide to make this project together?! And where did the resources come from?
Maria Krugovaya: First, Pavel came to me himself. And he had some kind of powerful project in his head. Some kind of stormy period of such self-awareness, radical self-expression. And he says: "Listen, Krugovaya, I want you to take pictures of me in a dress!" You understand that before I worked mainly with women. It's not that I don't photograph guys. But I said: "Listen, one moment! I don't want to take pictures of you in a dress, you know, as usual (I understand that it sounds strange), but as usual men are depicted in a dress? No way! " But in fact, they shoot, as usual, but it's still a man's portrait, with all the male stereotypes. All that makes it different is like "Oh look! We have a man in a dress! That's cool! " (mimics). And I don't like this approach. As if there is a man, putting on a dress, he immediately loses the opportunity for the photographer to work with light, foreshortening. No, we will put you on a white background, take a beautiful photo. And you will sit, 6-packs, in a dress, so handsome. I suggested to Pavel: "Let's do it wrong ?! Let's make a touching, very feminine look at a man in order to preserve some sensuality?! " Because, for example, when a woman is being photographed, here she is a bit sleepy, her beautiful neck ... it is always somehow with love. And if it is a man when you look at a photograph, there is a feeling of some kind of global, universal human claim. I wanted to avoid it. And when you meet a person with some kind of "abscess" (pain), then everything happens very easily. I suggested to Pavel to process the photos in an appropriate way. I didn't want to make some kind of glossy photo out of this project. We deliberately left the blurriness to make it seem like it is from life as if it was not filmed on purpose.
Maria Krugovaya: First, Pavel came to me himself. And he had some kind of powerful project in his head. Some kind of stormy period of such self-awareness, radical self-expression. And he says: "Listen, Krugovaya, I want you to take pictures of me in a dress!" You understand that before I worked mainly with women. It's not that I don't photograph guys. But I said: "Listen, one moment! I don't want to take pictures of you in a dress, you know, as usual (I understand that it sounds strange), but as usual men are depicted in a dress? No way! " But in fact, they shoot, as usual, but it's still a man's portrait, with all the male stereotypes. All that makes it different is like "Oh look! We have a man in a dress! That's cool! " (mimics). And I don't like this approach. As if there is a man, putting on a dress, he immediately loses the opportunity for the photographer to work with light, foreshortening. No, we will put you on a white background, take a beautiful photo. And you will sit, 6-packs, in a dress, so handsome. I suggested to Pavel: "Let's do it wrong ?! Let's make a touching, very feminine look at a man in order to preserve some sensuality?! " Because, for example, when a woman is being photographed, here she is a bit sleepy, her beautiful neck ... it is always somehow with love. And if it is a man when you look at a photograph, there is a feeling of some kind of global, universal human claim. I wanted to avoid it. And when you meet a person with some kind of "abscess" (pain), then everything happens very easily. I suggested to Pavel to process the photos in an appropriate way. I didn't want to make some kind of glossy photo out of this project. We deliberately left the blurriness to make it seem like it is from life as if it was not filmed on purpose.
"At that moment, I already gradually began to come to, so to speak, the look that was close to me: I began to grow hair, a mustache appeared, because these are kinks from pornography of the 80s. And I understand that I am somewhere on the doorstep, so I need something more. And a picture appeared in my head."
Pavel Dyagilev
Pavel Dyagilev
| Inquire about the photo |
| CU46: Pavel, please tell us about your pain? Pavel Dyagilev: Maria was like art media, actually! And I am the person who came to her with an idea. It all started a long time ago when I was born. (laughs). Well, yes, I am like a gay, who grew up in a small mining town in Siberia (Russia), with an accompanying life story, I live with it all my life. Roughly speaking, if I was born a man, then I need to be a man: I need to look like a man, behave like a man. That is, the men "don't cry," "don't laugh," and "don't dance," but I've just been dancing all my life along with everything else. And at some point, I began to have an internal incompatibility between my sensations and the external mask, this "man's" costume that I have been wearing all my life. To the point that I started to go crazy because I didn't understand what was wrong ?! And, probably, at some point, it all already overflowed. And I got this image! At that moment, I already gradually began to come to, so to speak, the look that was close to me: I began to grow hair, a mustache appeared, because these are kinks from pornography of the 80s. And I understand that I am somewhere on the doorstep, so I need something more. And a picture appeared in my head. |
CU46: Do you remember the moment when this picture appeared?
Pavel: Yes, I remember that moment. I was lying on the couch at home at night and watching some kind of a film that had nothing to do with our topic at all. And suddenly an image of a mustachioed man in a transparent dress, naked, pops up in my head. That is, I see curls, mustaches, some body hair under the armpits, in the groin. And all this hair is visible because this dress is transparent! This is the moment when you throw off everything from yourself, absolutely everything that was in your life, what was hung on you, what you hung on yourself. And you just put on this transparent dress, which shows your vulnerability, on the one hand. On the other hand, putting on this dress, you give such a challenge that no one can even say anything against you. Because I stand in front of you naked, in a transparent dress, so will you tell me that I'm not a man ?!
CU46: So this is a challenge for you, that you, excuse me, had big "balls" to put on a transparent dress, to show that you are a Man?!
Pavel: It's about courage as well. But for me, first of all, it's a scream! And I decided that I was going to Masha to take pictures. In general, I didn't care what would happen next. I wrote to Masha the next day, she invited me to discuss. But I was sick with COVID for three weeks, and I had time to think. As a result, all this still developed in terms of the idea. And then I found the dress, it came to me by itself. I remember the moment when I tried it on at home and said: "WOW! Oh yes! " And not only did I just want to be photographed in it, but I also wanted everyone to see me like that.
Pavel: Yes, I remember that moment. I was lying on the couch at home at night and watching some kind of a film that had nothing to do with our topic at all. And suddenly an image of a mustachioed man in a transparent dress, naked, pops up in my head. That is, I see curls, mustaches, some body hair under the armpits, in the groin. And all this hair is visible because this dress is transparent! This is the moment when you throw off everything from yourself, absolutely everything that was in your life, what was hung on you, what you hung on yourself. And you just put on this transparent dress, which shows your vulnerability, on the one hand. On the other hand, putting on this dress, you give such a challenge that no one can even say anything against you. Because I stand in front of you naked, in a transparent dress, so will you tell me that I'm not a man ?!
CU46: So this is a challenge for you, that you, excuse me, had big "balls" to put on a transparent dress, to show that you are a Man?!
Pavel: It's about courage as well. But for me, first of all, it's a scream! And I decided that I was going to Masha to take pictures. In general, I didn't care what would happen next. I wrote to Masha the next day, she invited me to discuss. But I was sick with COVID for three weeks, and I had time to think. As a result, all this still developed in terms of the idea. And then I found the dress, it came to me by itself. I remember the moment when I tried it on at home and said: "WOW! Oh yes! " And not only did I just want to be photographed in it, but I also wanted everyone to see me like that.
NOrmativity - 12, 2020
120x90cm, Printing on Canvas, Editions: 2, Price: € 1500
NOrmativity - 09, 2020
70x50 cm, Poster, Editions: 5, Price: € 150
NOrmativity - 13, 2020
9x12 cm, Postcard, Editions: 10, Price: € 75 120x90 cm, Printing on Canvas, Editions: 1, Price: € 1500
| CU46: I like the tights, to be honest, even more than the dress itself. It's very touching! Maria: Tights! I insisted! Pavel said: "Photograph me in a dress, then do whatever you want!" I said that I want tights and beige ones! Pavel: I came to Masha with some abstract ideas. I wanted it to be a kind of "Mind-Fuck" so that they could see a female photo, see a man on it but did not understand what was wrong. And when I received the photos I cried. For real! And this was the first time in 35 years that after the last photo in the folder ended, I said, "Oh, fuck! I am beautiful!" CU46: Why is the project called "NOrmativity"? Pavel: In addition to accepting myself, I also wanted to show the rejection of heteronormativity, that's why I named the project "NOrmativity" through "NO". CU46: Maria, what did you like the most about this project as an artist? Maria: Most of all I liked the story about body-positive and self-acceptance. I liked that for photography in a dress, we did not follow stereotypes and did not shoot some thin guy or super-fit one. But we photographed it tenderly. This is what I really liked, this softness, tenderness combined, of course, with this "dirty" mustache, "dirty" for me is a positive word here. |
"I don't even perceive it as persecution or bullying, for me, it's like "it's started raining". But it's too late, you're already wet."
Maria Krugovaya
Maria Krugovaya
CU46: Have you already shown this in Russia? On your Instagram accounts, for example?
Maria: We got banned several times on Instagram. And if you read all the comments under the photo, you can get cancer. Pavel had a better reaction from the public.
Pavel: Because my audience is not that big and they are all educated by me. They understand who I am, although my coming out happened only a few months ago when I wrote on our 17th anniversary how I love my partner on Instagram. Before that, I kept my account in the "who knows will understand" key. Therefore, it was important for me to show these photos on Instagram.
CU46: Maria, you have bullying in your account, right?
Maria: I don't even perceive it as persecution or bullying, for me, it's like "it's started raining". But it's too late, you're already wet. Of course, it's a little unpleasant when it rains, it happens. It happens that you don't have an umbrella with you. You left the house already. And here it's the same: you're not ready to read now who and how should die, and so on. Not ready, but you have to.
CU46: So, apart from Instagram, you haven't shown it anywhere in Russia, right?
Maria: And it hurts so much. Because when we did the project. For me, it's a level up! I am very proud of this job! For Pasha, I have no idea what an emotional breakthrough it is. And we are sitting such two bunnies ... Him with "eyes in a wet place", me with "trembling tail". And we have no one to show it! It is a horrible pain. Because, it is not so much as it is all arranged like this: you cannot go out into the street in this form (ment a transparent dress) somewhere, but because you did something very special, and you can't put it anywhere.
CU46: It's not only in Russia. We have a queer-art collective from Poland among the residents. And they talked about how complicated it is with censorship, and also what kind of persecution the LGBTQI+ community is going through.
Pavel: Everything went bad there. It seems that it was better before, as in Russia, in fact, during the time of the "t.A.T.u." at Eurovision. It was the early 2000s.
CU46: And then the law happened "Against the promotion of homosexuality among young people". What year was it, remind me, please?
Maria: In 2011? No, in 2013. But since 2010 things have gotten progressively worse. Yes, I remember it became visible on the streets. Because I didn't notice it before, and one day I was walking down the street, and a whole flock of scamps followed a girl who looked atypical. Previously, this was possible only in villages and small towns, for people to run after someone down the street and shout "Hey you, are you a lesbian?!" But it was happening at Nevsky Prospect, St. Petersburg.
Maria: We got banned several times on Instagram. And if you read all the comments under the photo, you can get cancer. Pavel had a better reaction from the public.
Pavel: Because my audience is not that big and they are all educated by me. They understand who I am, although my coming out happened only a few months ago when I wrote on our 17th anniversary how I love my partner on Instagram. Before that, I kept my account in the "who knows will understand" key. Therefore, it was important for me to show these photos on Instagram.
CU46: Maria, you have bullying in your account, right?
Maria: I don't even perceive it as persecution or bullying, for me, it's like "it's started raining". But it's too late, you're already wet. Of course, it's a little unpleasant when it rains, it happens. It happens that you don't have an umbrella with you. You left the house already. And here it's the same: you're not ready to read now who and how should die, and so on. Not ready, but you have to.
CU46: So, apart from Instagram, you haven't shown it anywhere in Russia, right?
Maria: And it hurts so much. Because when we did the project. For me, it's a level up! I am very proud of this job! For Pasha, I have no idea what an emotional breakthrough it is. And we are sitting such two bunnies ... Him with "eyes in a wet place", me with "trembling tail". And we have no one to show it! It is a horrible pain. Because, it is not so much as it is all arranged like this: you cannot go out into the street in this form (ment a transparent dress) somewhere, but because you did something very special, and you can't put it anywhere.
CU46: It's not only in Russia. We have a queer-art collective from Poland among the residents. And they talked about how complicated it is with censorship, and also what kind of persecution the LGBTQI+ community is going through.
Pavel: Everything went bad there. It seems that it was better before, as in Russia, in fact, during the time of the "t.A.T.u." at Eurovision. It was the early 2000s.
CU46: And then the law happened "Against the promotion of homosexuality among young people". What year was it, remind me, please?
Maria: In 2011? No, in 2013. But since 2010 things have gotten progressively worse. Yes, I remember it became visible on the streets. Because I didn't notice it before, and one day I was walking down the street, and a whole flock of scamps followed a girl who looked atypical. Previously, this was possible only in villages and small towns, for people to run after someone down the street and shout "Hey you, are you a lesbian?!" But it was happening at Nevsky Prospect, St. Petersburg.
CU46: Let's talk about your creative plans. Will you be making the continuation of the project with Pavel?
Pavel: There are no creative plans so far to do something like that in my head. Because I am now very immersed in the work of promoting, studying all this. I like the whole story with curatorship, with galleries, exhibitions.
Maria: But maybe someday we'll shoot "The Story of One Dress" with characters who "are not supposed to" wear this dress.
CU46: And one last question. Where do you see "NOrmativity" in a couple of years? In which country do you want to have an exhibition? Which gallery? Or a museum?
Maria: On the one hand, when you are asked this question, you keep thinking, in which city would I like to be at the opening of my solo exhibition? I think about this, first of all, as a photographer. I want New York! Or Paris! But in fact, I suppose that it is much more important if an exhibition with these works, with this project, is opened somewhere in countries where these topics are taboo. Somewhere where it will have some kind of social weight, and not just as an art event. For example, I dream of standing in New York under my works, where no one has such pain as here in Russia. And I also dream of opening this exhibition in some small city in Russia.
Pavel: Yes, at least in St. Petersburg. Because now it is impossible to show it here. Not a single large exhibition venue, such as the Manege, the General Staff Building, not to mention the Hermitage, will take risks against the law, which was discussed above, and also against the Russian Orthodox Church. If only small galleries can exhibit, although even they are very vulnerable. Therefore, I want to show the project in St. Petersburg, but not in some basement. Do you understand? In general, I would like to have a "big dick" hanging all over the wall just in the Manege or the General Staff building! Both figuratively and literally in our case.
Maria: Yes, I want it too! It's just that even if you follow all the rules, no one will take it.
Pavel: That's why we want to transform the project, for example, into augmented reality. And until the "thaw" has come in our country, we are promoting it in those countries where the LGBTQI+ topic is not banned.
Pavel: There are no creative plans so far to do something like that in my head. Because I am now very immersed in the work of promoting, studying all this. I like the whole story with curatorship, with galleries, exhibitions.
Maria: But maybe someday we'll shoot "The Story of One Dress" with characters who "are not supposed to" wear this dress.
CU46: And one last question. Where do you see "NOrmativity" in a couple of years? In which country do you want to have an exhibition? Which gallery? Or a museum?
Maria: On the one hand, when you are asked this question, you keep thinking, in which city would I like to be at the opening of my solo exhibition? I think about this, first of all, as a photographer. I want New York! Or Paris! But in fact, I suppose that it is much more important if an exhibition with these works, with this project, is opened somewhere in countries where these topics are taboo. Somewhere where it will have some kind of social weight, and not just as an art event. For example, I dream of standing in New York under my works, where no one has such pain as here in Russia. And I also dream of opening this exhibition in some small city in Russia.
Pavel: Yes, at least in St. Petersburg. Because now it is impossible to show it here. Not a single large exhibition venue, such as the Manege, the General Staff Building, not to mention the Hermitage, will take risks against the law, which was discussed above, and also against the Russian Orthodox Church. If only small galleries can exhibit, although even they are very vulnerable. Therefore, I want to show the project in St. Petersburg, but not in some basement. Do you understand? In general, I would like to have a "big dick" hanging all over the wall just in the Manege or the General Staff building! Both figuratively and literally in our case.
Maria: Yes, I want it too! It's just that even if you follow all the rules, no one will take it.
Pavel: That's why we want to transform the project, for example, into augmented reality. And until the "thaw" has come in our country, we are promoting it in those countries where the LGBTQI+ topic is not banned.
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